YOUR RELATIONSHIP, YOUR RULES! NON-MONOGAMY TIPS...

Nadège sits down with sex therapist Nicoletta Heidegger, who is not just an expert in non-monogamy but a woman who has personally experienced opening up her relationship. 

This episode is so empowering because you get to hear from an expert who doesn't just talk the talk; she walks the walk. Allowing us to explore non-monogamy from a deeper perspective that helps you show up as your best self in your relationship(s).

Enjoy a conversation that will open your eyes and fill you with tips for non-monogamy (whether you are a beginner, a ENM veteran, or simply curious about this topic!)

Nicoletta Heidegger is a licensed marriage and family therapist (#110256) and an award-nominated sexologist practicing in Los Angeles. She specializes in sex therapy as well as Equine Assisted Psychotherapy (EAP). She sees therapy clients (CA residents only) virtually and at her unique ranch office in Los Angeles. She also provides coaching, consulting, education, and retreats to folks around the world. 

When not seeing clients, Nicoletta creates weekly content via her hit show Sluts and Scholars: a sex positive, shame-free, educational podcast for professionals who prioritize pleasure. 

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WEB • www.pleasurescience.com

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Connect with Nicoletta:

• website: https://www.nicolettavheidegger.com/
• Sluts and Scholars podcast
• Instagram @therapywithnicoletta and @slutsandscholars

Information about the orgasm gap

Wednesday Martin

Multiamory podcast

Opening Up by Tristan Taormino

Ethical Slut by Janet W. Hardy

Open Deeply by Kate Loree

Dr. Emily Jamea

Plura app

Fetlife

910WeHo

Nicoletta: A lot of people have what we call like a low positive affect tolerance or a nourishment barrier, meaning that a lot of us struggle to receive, a lot of us struggle to take in the the good things in life, whether that be help, support, love, compliments, sexual pleasure. And so you may need to work on your ability to like receive more.

Nadège: Welcome to the Pleasure Science Podcast, a podcast all about teaching you how to feel healthier and empowered in your sexuality. I am Nadège and I am so excited because today I am on with Nicoletta Heidegger. Nicoletta is a licensed marriage and family therapist. She is an award-nominated sexologist. She is the host of the top podcast Sluts and Scholars, and she's someone who went from monogamous to monogamish to an open relationship. So not only is she someone who is obviously a very lovely sex expert, but she walks the walk that she teaches with her clients and her listeners on her podcast. So Nicoleta, welcome to this episode all about non monogamy. I am so excited to have you here. 

Nicolette: Hi, I'm so excited to be here and be on the other side of this interview. It is about time that the Pleasure Science podcast was here. So I'm thrilled to be a guest. And I love you. 

Nadège: Thank you. I love you too. Yeah, Nicolette and I go way back. But you know something that we always do when we start off this podcast with all the guests, I always ask the same question. And that is, what is your definition of sex?

Nicoletta: I'm so glad you asked this because I ask this of my clients all the time because of course our cultural definition is like P in the V sex. And not only does that limit all the fun things you can do, but it also limits all the fun that you can have. And it just, you know, it's there's so many other fun things that can experience pleasure. 

And so for me, the way I define sex is any act that is pleasurable and consensual. That's it. Like very, very broadly because then that means you can have more of it. It also means that we're taking sort of penetration off as the gold standard of what is good sex. Um, that sort of baseball metaphor that it's only good if you get it in. Um, and so yeah, for me, it's like anything that is pleasurable that is consensual. It doesn't even have to involve genitals. Uh, it doesn't have to involve another person. Um, we could be calling this sex right now, like stimulating our brain in a pleasurable way.

Nadège: I love that. I mean, I'm down to have some pleasure science sexy time with you over the next hour. I'm so here for that. I love it. Well, and I completely agree with that definition. And I think, you know, that's one of the reasons we start off this podcast with that question because our definition of sex is holding us back, right? This mainstream definition.

And even thinking of what's holding us back, I also think a lot of the ways that we view relationships and with monogamy as the gold standard of either success or failure of a relationship, it's a big thing that also can either hold us back or at least just cause friction. Like we're doing something that we don't question ourselves if we really want.

Something that's so interesting when we look at, you know, I guess deficits for lack of a better word in relationships, we see a lot of research of the orgasm gap, which for anyone who doesn't know what that is, it's where men tend to have more orgasms than women in heterosexual relationships, because just like you said, we're prioritizing penetration. 

Nicoletta: And in first hookups as well.

Nadège: Yeah, exactly, exactly. And so there's always these stereotypes. I bring up the orgasm gap because when we're talking about non-monogamy, I feel like a big stereotype is that men want a non-monogamous relationship to have their cake and eat it too. And that's where a lot of non-monogamous relationships start. But I personally see a lot of women and also a lot of queer people kind of spearheading polyamory and ethical non-monogamy. And a big reason why this can happen, I think is because of the orgasm gap where we see a lot of people being in a monogamous relationship where they're not sexually fulfilled. And then ethical non-monogamy becomes this option, right, of, oh, maybe I can have sex that is more pleasurable for me. Maybe I can bring more energy to the relationship. And that's something that I've seen in my research. But what do you see as someone who's an expert in this space? Why do people flock to non-monogamy? 

Nicoletta: Yeah. I mean, first I want to preface it by saying that I also am a fan of monogamy. I think when a lot of times people hear that somebody is interested in or practicing non-monogamy, they think that we want to proselytize everybody to be like, oh, this is the way. And if you are evolved enough that you will find your way to non-monogamy, like, no, I don't believe that. I think monogamy works well for some people and that's great. For me, what's most important is that we don't slide into non-monogamy, but we decide into our relationship structure. And so kind of like what you're talking about with that relationship escalator, you know, most people are taught that monogamy is the only option. And it's the best option, which you know isn't necessarily true because we have an over 60% divorce rate, probably higher by this point you know in the US. And so clearly, there's something about it that doesn't work for some people.

So for me, what it's really about is making sure that people know and get to see and get exposed to all of the options that are out there so they can make an informed choice in terms of what works for them. 

And you know, I see some people who really feel that it's like an orientation that they like are non-monogamous and that is what they need forever. And I see some people who shift into and out of that throughout their life. You know, we see the same thing with like, um, people's sexual interests and sexuality is like, for some people it feels very born this way fluid and for others, um, you know, it's not static throughout time. Um, and so in terms of who I see initiating… I mean, you know to be honest, I don't have the numbers for it, but I definitely see desires and requests for it across the gender spectrum. So it's certainly not just men, and I feel like this kind of fits that stereotype that men want more sex. 

And if you're interested in research about that, check out, oh, is it Wednesday Martin, I think? She's been on my podcast. I think I'm saying her name right. Hi, Wen. But I think what that basically, the issue with that is that it was based on old research that was done mostly on people with penises, because most of sexuality research in the past has been done on men. And so what we, you know, kind of saw with that is people were looking at spontaneous desire as the filter for who wants more sex. And in reality, people with vulvas, people with vaginas, you know people, gender diverse folks, also want sex the same amount, if not more, but the way that their arousal and desire patterns work were not necessarily being measured in those studies. 

And so to me, I think the same is probably true for non-monogamy, is that between cultural pressures, this old research that isn't actually true. And you know, potentially shame and responsive desire and things like that, which we can get into if you want, I think that, you know, men might be seen as the people who are most interested, but I really see it across the spectrum. 

And one last thing you said that I want to touch on is like, if you're not having good enough or great sex in your partnership, non-monogamy is awesome in some ways because you don't have to rely on one person for all the things. And I do think it's important to make sure you're addressing whatever that struggle might be with the partner that you would like to open up with, so that you're not outsourcing in a way that feels objectifying, I guess.

Nadège: Yeah, no, that makes total sense. Absolutely. And you know you did mention the spontaneous and responsive desire. Do you want to explain quickly what that means for anyone who doesn't understand? 

Nicoletta: Yeah, happy to. This is like my favorite thing to teach clients and people about. 

Nadège: Yay.

Nicoletta: Basically, in short, I say that in short, I'm a therapist, it's gonna be like a 30-minute, you know, explanation probably, so please, please stop me. But arousal and desire are different experiences for people.

So arousal is the body's unconscious, physical response to some kind of stimuli. And that doesn't even mean sexual. It could be if I jump out and scare you and your heart starts to race, that means your body is becoming aroused. Your nervous system is turning on. So that's arousal. Desire is more like the head and the heart of wanting something.

And so the thing is with humans, we can experience desire without arousal, meaning you want this thing, but your body is like not bodying the way you want it to. And we can also experience arousal without desire. We often see this in cases of non-consent where someone's body can have physical pleasure or arousal demonstrations like wetness, hardness, and orgasm, but that doesn't mean they're wanting the thing.

And so the way this relates to spontaneous and responsive is spontaneous desire is sort of like the wind blows and you're like, I can have sex. I have a boner. Like you're like just ready. That doesn't seem like there's maybe anything really leading up to it. And the desire and arousal sort of are happening kind of at the same time. We see this mostly for like testosterone driven people, people with penises, and also at the beginning of a relationship, and when people are younger.

Responsive desire is more seen in estrogen-driven people, people who identify as cisgender women, people in long-term relationships, and people as they get older. And what this looks like is you may not even be thinking about sex or erotic eroticism or erotic content on a day-to-day. You might even have been put into a category of low libido or disinterested in sex. But in reality, you might be someone who needs other things to happen before you can feel desire and before you're open to the idea of getting turned on. And so what that looks like is you might need to feel a certain way. You might need the house clean. You might need to make sure the kids are asleep. And then you have to sort of make a choice, like, are you open to the idea of experiencing desire?

Then your mind might do some things like, oh, is the sex worth having? Is it shitty sex? Do I remember that this is good? And then you make a choice. And then once you start engaging in some sort of erotic play, either with yourself or with someone else, that could be listening to erotica, starting to kiss, then as the arousal physically starts to build, then you're like, oh, I remember that I like this. This could be fun. Now I desire sex.

And so this is super important because most people just put themselves in category of high and low libido and it's so much more layered than that. Okay. How'd we do on time? I didn't, I didn't do it too long. 

Nadège: No, that was perfect. That was so interesting. And I love the way that you broke that down. Cause even as a sex scholar, I feel like the spontaneous and responsive arousal archetypes get broken down in ways that are really simplified, and you were so detailed, and that's really helpful, especially when we're thinking of ethical non-monogamy, right? And so one question that I hear all the time from people is, because people who are trying out an open relationship, they're like, OK, wait, there's open relationships. There's polyamory. There's ethical non-monogamy. Like, which is which? Are they the same? What is this? And so just as a baseline to start off, right? What are these different type of labels in this world? Are they the same or are they not? 

Nicoletta: So open relationship is really just to me the blanket term that is we are not monogamous, you know, in some way, shape or form. But I do think it's important to ask each person what it means to them, because you might have one idea of what something is and then the other person has another idea and you might be speaking a different language based on these different definitions or expectations. So I would say always ask. I always sort of cringe a little bit when people use ethical non-monogamy or consensual non-monogamy, because to me, if it's not monogamy, it should baseline be ethical and consensual. Or at least working towards figuring out what is ethical for us, what is consensual for us. Because if it's not, it's fucking cheating.

Nadège: Yeah.

Nicoletta: You know, if it's not, then there's, you know, an issue with consent. If it's not, then there's, you know, pressure. And so, yes, I think like, ENM is a, ENM or ethical non-monogamy is like a thing that people might see all over or CNM, consensual non-monogamy. But to me, I kind of just prefer to say non-monogamy because I think the figuring out the ethics and the consent should be just a part of being in relationship. Kind of like we say, like if somebody was sexually assaulted, you know, I prefer to call that like rape, not sex. 

Nadège: Yeah, absolutely.

Nicoletta: So use it if you want to use it, you know, this is up to each person to define it for themselves and explain to other people what that means. But for me, I'm like, non-monogamy. And to me what that means is, it's again, I sort of put that synonymously with open relationship, is that, and people might define this differently, but it's just like something that is not monogamous. And then under that broad umbrella, you have sort of infinite numbers of terms and experiences that can set up, you know, a structure that works for them. So many different kinds of relationship options. So you've got, we can talk about some of these if you want. But we've got things like polyamory. We've got things like monogamish. We've got things like cuckolding. We've got things like swinging. We've got things… Yeah, the list can go on and on. 

Nadège: But that's let's start. Let's dive into some of these things on the list because they're sexy. So polyamory, which is I think a term a lot of people might know about, but what would be your quick definition of polyamory? 

Nicoletta: Yeah, well, the sort of definition of the word is poly-amory, many loving. And so it's somebody who has the capability or a desire to love and connect romantically with many with multiple people. That doesn't mean that they're doing it at this moment. That doesn't mean they have a partner, but it's sort of like the desire or capacity to be many loving.

This can be different than what I call like polysexual. So this is someone who might want multiple sexual relationships, but may not feel able to, comfortable with, or desiring of multiple like romantic partnerships. And, you know, under these umbrellas, I think there's so many structural things that people can sort of define for themselves. 

So under the guise of polyamory, some people believe in what's called a hierarchical setup, which means that there's like two people who have either an anchor or a primary partnership. They're each other sort of like, quote unquote, main partners, or sometimes people will say a nesting partner, like someone that they live with. And then non-hierarchical is that like all of the potential people in the mix are sort of on the same playing field. There's also people who do something called solo polyamory, which means that they don't necessarily have one primary or anchor partner, but they do have multiple, you know, committed partnerships of a certain kind. So that's polyamory, and then like I said, polysexuality. 

Nadège: And I love, I want to just also, thinking of polyamory, because you said something earlier in the episode that was really important that I also find to be true in this community, especially with the term polyamory, is people really identify with that almost the way people identify with the sexual orientation, like you had said of like, Oh, I'm queer, and I know I'm queer, right? That's not going to change. And a lot of people that I know-

Nicoletta: Yeah, I am amorous versus I'm practicing polyamory.

Nadège: Exactly. Like I find, and tell me if you find this too, when we're in communities that are non-monogamous, poly people are like, I am poly, right? And that's like a part of their core identity. And for other people, it isn't. But I find with a lot of poly people, it is. 

And then you said some other fun things like swinging. Another question I hear all the time is like, wait, what's the difference between swinging and not, isn't that non-monogamy? Or is that polyamory? So what identifies some people as swingers?

Nicoletta: Yeah, so swinging again is another thing under the category of non-monogamy or some type of open relationship. And in its sort of, I do think the way it's being defined is changing in some ways, as relationship communities are becoming more open, more queer, more… there's just more discussion around how we can challenge some of these binary experiences of these different relationship styles. But in its classic definition, sort of, it's usually a partnership of two, and in sort of like pop culture, we often see it as a male-female relationship, but it can be any gender partnership.

So it's a partnership of two and they have a primary relationship, a primary, usually romantic partnership, whether they're married or just in some kind of committed setup. And then they play sexually and sort of in a friendship way with either other couples or other individuals.

And so what makes it sort of different is there really is this established partnership and the play beyond that is a little bit more sexually or sort of “friend with benefits” type focus. There's really this kind of hierarchical setup with the partners that are playing, you know, with each other or the individual versus the partners that are playing with each other.

Nadège: Yeah, that makes total sense. And then the other one you mentioned, which I think is one of the most fun in this whole umbrella is cuckolding. Yeah, cuckolding is... so also because… And I love diving into all of these things, because I hope anyone listening, what you get from this is you can make your own rules. You know, you can love however you wanna love. But and yeah And speaking of that, so cuckolding, take it away, Nicoleta.

Nicoletta: If you're listening and you are a little cuck, shout out to you, lots of love to you. So basically what this is, it is a setup, again, under this sort of bigger theme of some type of non-monogamy, where a person gets off on watching their partner with another person and/or, you know, someone enjoys being watched by their partner. Traditionally there's this element of cuckolding that sort of has a, almost like a sexy shaming and comparison aspect, because, sort of, in the the old definition of a cuckold was someone who's woman had sex with someone else, they cuckolded them, like somebody who left this person for a better, stronger, bigger, sexier partner. 

And so this is sort of like taking, re-ownershipping I think that definition as like, oh actually I kind of get off on the idea of thinking of my partner with someone who I deem to be hotter than me in some kind of way. And so there can be this aspect in cuckolding of watching your partner with someone who's very different than you, whether that be different body size, different way that they present. And there's this excitement in watching them have pleasure with this other person. That's different than what we call, some people call it hot wiving or hot partnering, which kind of doesn't necessarily have that aspect of the comparison sort of degradation kink, but is more like, Hey, my partner's hot. I love to watch people fuck them and know that then they're also coming home to fuck me. Who else wants to fuck my hot partner? So that the fun one too. And for people listening who are like, what? I can't believe people do this. Again, for me, this is just about you knowing what's out there so that you can make informed choices for yourself. This does not have to be for you, but there are a lot of people who are into it.

Nadège: Yeah, absolutely. I love that. Don't yuck the yum and keep an open mind, little disclaimer, because it is so important and there's so many ways that you can have fun and thinking of that. So, you know, people who follow Pleasure Science, there's a lot of people in my community who are already ethically non-monogamous. And then there's a lot of people who reach out because this is something that they want to explore, whether on their own as a single person or in a long-term relationship. So what are some tips that you would have? And even if you're open to sharing a little bit of your story, because you're someone who has gone through your own journey as well and has had a very successful relationship opening things up. So you’re… that's why I was so excited to have you on this podcast for this episode. So what are some tips that you would give folks? And yeah, feel free to share whatever you're comfortable with with your own story.

Nicoletta: Thank you. Yeah, and just remember like my way is not the way, right? This was the way that worked for me. And similarly, you know, there's no one right way to to do non-monogamy. It's really about, you know, collaborating and figuring out what works for you and the people that you're connecting with. 

And so first I would say do your own fucking work on yourself. Any relationship is hard and can bring up things within us that really make us look at ourselves. But I will say that non-monogamy can often put things into the light where in monogamy those things might be easier to hide from. And so non-monogamy is sort of like doing a more experiential type of learning on yourself where you're forced to look at some stuff, whether that be how you self-regulate, self-confidence, your attachment styles. And again, those things can come up in monogamy or all relationship styles, but non-monogamy puts us in situations where there's more in our face opportunities to be invited into those types of self-work. 

So, you know, you don't have to be perfect. You don't have to have it all figured out. You don't have to be all healed, whatever that even means, but like do the work, you know, go to therapy, go to somebody who is, you know, non-monogamy affirming and informed as a coach or a therapist, and really work on you know these aspects of yourself. If you're with a partner I would always recommend going to a coach or therapist who specializes in this so you can get community support because that's another thing is just you know this is still a stigmatized type of relationship or these are still stigmatized types of relationships, so having community is really key. So yeah, looking at yourself. Really making sure that you have and/or are building an awesome toolbox of self-regulatory things because non-monogamy might dysregulate you in certain ways, which is okay. That doesn't have to be a bad thing, but knowing that you have people to talk to, a therapist to speak with, tools that help you manage feelings that feel a little bit uncomfortable sometimes.

I also think on the other side of this, get ready to expand your heart and your pleasure potential too. And those things sound like fun and I think on paper fun and easy of like, oh, the good things, I want more room for that. But a lot of people have what we call a low positive affect tolerance or a nourishment barrier, meaning that a lot of us struggle to receive. A lot of us struggle to take in the good things in life, whether that be help, support, love, compliments, sexual pleasure. And so you may need to work on your ability to receive more.

Another thing I would say is get a good scheduling planner because you're going to need to get better at managing your time. And as a person with ADHD, that can add some spice to it, in a fun way. And it's interesting because I do see a lot of intersection of… I don't really believe in neurotypicalness, but that's a whole other conversation… as a standardized definition, but I do think people who have more spicy brains, I do find them being attracted to different kinds of relationships because they think in different ways.

So yeah, do some work on your executive functioning and planning. That could be helpful. And then take some classes, read some books. I love the podcast, who's on my podcast network, Multiamory. They have some great resources and some books. I love a classic book of a friend of ours, Tristan Taormino, Opening Up, is a wonderful book for that. There's an old classic called Ethical Slut that most people read as like their first entryway one. There's some great ones by a colleague of mine, Kate Loree called Open Deeply. So there's so many things out there, you don't have to do it by yourself. So get informed about what kind of relationships there are, do the work on yourself, and that's an ongoing thing, but make sure you have support, that you're building a toolbox, and do your homework. 

Nadège: Yeah, absolutely. And when people do start opening up, what are some things that you've seen as a sex therapist and as a professional in this world that does come up when we start opening up our relationships? 

Nicoletta: Yeah. So again, depending on what kind of thing it is, you know, sometimes at the initial point, I'll see if someone's in a partnership that one partner is wanting to go faster than the other one or not wanting to do it at all. So, you know, that can be, that can be something that can be navigated. Absolutely. There are also relationships where one person is monogamous and the other is non-monogamous and they can work, but it requires a certain amount of accepting the other person, you know, as they are and some other details in there too, but it is possible. 

So yeah, I see that one person is sort of having to regulate and sort of slow themselves down and another is having to stretch themselves a little bit, and that can be hard when one person is anxious and excited about it and the other is feeling triggered.

Another thing that I see is new relationship energy. So if you've ever been in a new partnership, you know that it can feel really fucking good. Really excited. Well, you know what? Like really good, but also really anxiety provoking. It's like this frenetic, frantic, la la la la, you just can't. 

Nadège: I think it's how we're all a little masochistic, right? Where we're like, I'm so anxious, but I have such a big crush, right? 

Nicoletta: Oh yeah, there’s nothing like it, will we, won’t we, you know, so knowing how to manage that with the person you've been farting on the couch with for the last you know five years can be a tricky thing to navigate and not comparing jealousy.

So I think, you know, jealousy, people who are non-monogamous, people who are non-monogamous can also experience jealousy at different rates and levels, but it's not about controlling or not having jealousy, it's about how we interact with the jealousy. So people are having to sort of form new relationships with the jealousy where they look at how it's making them feel and get curious about where that's coming from and then having conversations with themselves, with their support, with their partners.

So, you know, I see the jealousy part. I also see pleasant positive stuff too, right? Like I see people feeling better about themselves, feeling less like there was something wrong with them for cheating or for wanting more. I see people expanding their communities. I see people giving themselves more permission to be themselves, to explore. I see people having better sex and bringing that energy either to their relationship with themselves or to a partner. I see people just expanding their knowledge of what's out there and just being more open, being more accepting. So I really like to highlight those pieces too. 

I see people maybe increasing in self-confidence because they're seeing so many different people and body types and relationship styles. See, I really like to highlight these other pieces because like, yeah, relationships are hard, work is required. Non-monogamy can require more work. So don't think it's just going to be easier. 

Nadège: Yeah, like some of them like this person has two boyfriends lucky for them. Meanwhile, they're communicating until three in the morning and dealing with partner A’s jealousy and then partner B, you know. And I also think what's so important too is monogamy is also work. Any relationship, friendships are also work, relationships with your family are also work.

And so it's interesting cause I feel like monogamy and non-monogamy can get either two extremes where it's like, wow, they're having their cake and eating it too. And you know, poo poo for them. I'm so jealous that they have these hot lovers and they can do what they want. And then on the other end of the extreme ideas about this, people will be like, oh, but it's so much work and how could they do, you know? And, um, and that's so hard. And in reality, I think, well, there is unique work and extra self-work that can go into non-monogamy. That's because you're being activated in ways that will make you grow because relationships do make you grow, but it doesn't mean that one is going to be more work or harder than the other. Any relationship is work. 

But I love all of these tips, and I especially love all of the positive tips, the positive results you went over, because that's something that I experienced. I personally am ambiamorous. I'm happy in a monogamous relationship or a polyamorous relationship, as you know. I've been in several poly relationships, several monogamous relationships, and I've experienced how they're both work, but I've also experienced how they can create such beautiful results in terms of self-confidence, in terms of communication, in terms of your own capacity to be a loving human, be an erotic human. What are some things that you experienced as you opened up your relationship that you were like, wow, this is so beautiful and I'm so grateful for this growth. 

Nicoletta: Yeah. I mean, I think that maybe some of the harder part for me was like… In my current relationship, I was the one who was a little bit more of the ready to go faster person. And so it's interesting cause I often see this with partners. And so for me, it was figuring out like, wow, it's so interesting that I'm finding myself attracted to this person who has all these awesome qualities, and then they're not necessarily experienced in this other thing that I'm saying I'm wanting. I see that a lot, and I will often ask clients, well, what is it about this person not being into it that is attracting you? 

And like I said, it it can work when you have these, you know, people who want different things, but I do see a lot of the times what a colleague Reid Mihalko of mine used to say, dating your species, which is like, if you know that there's something you're really into, making sure you find people who are also into that. But for a lot of people who are discovering non-monogamy, they might not know that clearly going into a relationship until they're already deep in it. And so I think for me, it was, you know, figuring out a lot of work around just being clear with what I wanted, and, you know, practicing my communication skills and getting clear on what was coming up for me, you know, around a lot of these things and fear of abandonment and working on all that stuff. And I would say, so for me, it's definitely enabled me to be a better communicator.

It has also given me more compassion for other people. Cause I think, you know, growing up in this capitalistic world, it often, and this still happens for me a lot, but I'm working on it. You know, often there's this thing of like, either you're experiencing joy or I'm experiencing joy, but we can't both experience joy because joy is apparently finite and I have to be having more fun than you. 

Nadège: Gemini problems.

Nicoletta: Yeah, because stuff like this can become a whole thing for a lot of people too, of just like that we've been taught to compete, right? So it helped me challenge this idea of competing, especially with other women, which is what women are often taught growing up to keep us against each other, you know, to compare, to talk shit about them, to put them down to uplift ourselves. And so it's really helped me become more compassionate, more in the mindset of abundant love and experiences and connections. And that's not easy, you know, that's something that still comes up for me and for a lot of people sometimes. 

But, you know, it's also taught me to be more into, in nonmonogamy what we call compersion, which is feeling joy and excitement for someone else's experiences that aren't necessarily yours or aren't directly connected to you. So being able to feel excitement for another human in their human experiences is really cool. 

I think it's also helped me realize that feelings in and of themselves are not good or bad. I definitely think feelings and sensations can give us information and can tell us things, can help us understand, you know, how something is sitting with us and what we should do about that. And sort of leaning into that discomfort or stretching and growing, whatever, does not have to be a bad thing, that feelings that we deem as negative, whether that be jealousy or whatever, aren't just bad feelings, but instead it's a cool opportunity to get to build resilience with a multitude of feelings and sensations and being okay with those. 

Nadège: Yeah, absolutely. And I think there's also so many unexpected moments of joy with non-monogamy too. Like I'll never forget how I had gone on a date with someone while I was in a non-monogamous relationship. And I went on a date with this person. The date was kind of okay, not not anything to write home about, but it really made me appreciate and miss my partner I already had. And I think that's another unexpected, beautiful surprise in ethical non-monogamy. Like there's the fear of, oh, if we open things up, what if my love falls in love with someone else? And so often I've seen with myself and others that opening things up actually makes you really grateful and appreciative for what you have, because you're realizing even though you're with a fun, exciting new person, there's new relationship energy, they don't know that when they touch your stomach, you get triggered, but your partner that you've been working like you've been with for years knows all of your things and knows, it can make you really appreciative of what you have and what you've built with someone when you start opening things up as well.

Nicoletta: Yeah. And there's beautiful parts to both of those, right? Like there's, you know, being with somebody or like monogamy. I forgot who said this, so I'm sorry. I'm not quoting you properly, but that monogamy doesn't have to be monotony, you know? So like that. I think that it's important too because in our culture I think we've uplifted that that new relationship energy that we see in romantic comedies that that's the best ideal form of fun exciting pleasure, and I fall prey to that too because I'm like yeah it is pretty fun, you know?

And being able to get into, shout out Dr. Emily Jamea, into like, she does a lot of work around this, but get into flow state with somebody that you've practiced a lot with. It's also really cool and beautiful. So, yeah, there's something beautiful about somebody knowing you and your body in a certain way, and something really cool and beautiful about having a beginner's mind with a new person and exploring that for the first time, because you might like if they touch your belly. You might not like if the other person does. So that's cool too. And yeah, I think it's also just, it's just fun. 

Nadège: It is fun, no it is fun.

Nicoletta: And you know hard, difficult conversations too, but like, there's just a lot of fun to be had. And to me, you know, sex and all the things within pleasure is a way for us to play as adults. So to me, this is also a way to play by myself and with different people. 

Nadège: I completely agree. And, you know, thinking of people who have maybe been ethically non-monogamous for a long time, do you have any thoughts or ideas of things that they can do in their relationship or their personal growth journey?

Nicoletta:  Yeah. If you've already been kind of in one of these lifestyles for a time, you know, I would say, you know, still to keep doing the work, you know, with how you or your partner might be changing over time. Continue to go have checks and balances. Continue to go to, again, a therapist or a coach who's informed about that. Have community support. Have check and balance people who you trust are going to call you out or call you in on your stuff so that you don't get complacent. And yeah, like I said, to me, community is key. So just continuing to connect with other community members is really key here, in my opinion. 

Nadège: Yeah. Where do people find community? How would you recommend people find community?

Nicoletta: Yeah, so I might start with some of those books and podcasts, and some of those will have online communities that are connected to them. Next, there's a lot of apps that will have virtual or in-person events or experiences. So for example, the Plura, formerly I think Bloom app, has events, you know, where you are, or at least virtually if you're in an area that doesn't have a lot of in-person events, where you can meet people like that. 

I don't love their interface, but there's also Fetlife. People go on there for kink and non-monogamy and they, you know, show and host a bunch of events. But depending on what city you're in, you know, there's also, people often host things called munches, which are non-sexual meetups at a bar or a restaurant where other non-monogamous people will come and hang out. And again, you can find those listed just by searching “munches in my area for non-monogamy”. Just search the keywords or going on an app, you know, like Plura and things like that too, to find some. 

And there's often event spaces in big cities, too. Like, here in LA, we have things like 910WeHo or other places like that where they will have beginner entry level ones. And, you know, check out the classes that people like myself and Nadège put on because you'll probably also meet people like that and, you know, in those classes if it's, you know, a similar topic that's exciting for you.

Nadège: Yeah, I love that. And I agree. The Plura app is amazing. And there's a lot of really cool crossover in kink communities and BDSM communities and non-monogamy communities. And I also find a really cool crossover in queer and transgender communities too. And so with finding community, be creative and look at the other parts of your identity, because maybe you'll find poly community through your kinky community, right? Or through your queer community. And the Plura app. 

Nicoletta: Because you're in non-monogamy doesn't mean you have to be kinky or doesn't mean you have to be queer and I do find that people who are attracted to these things do become more open-minded so that's why there is this crossover because it's already people who are kind of challenging the status quo and like on the fringe of things so they're probably into most of them. You don't have to be.

Nadège: No, absolutely. And I bet everyone listening, whether you're poly or non-monogamous or monogamous, you know poly people and you may not even realize it. Because what's also cool is it's a really big and growing community and there are so many folks, you know, which is just really wonderful. And, I mean, we've covered so many things today, but are there any other elements of this conversation that you feel are important to share or anything that's helped you personally in your journey as transitioning from monogamous to non-monogamous? 

Nicoletta: Yeah. I do just want to normalize that people get to that place or that path in different ways, right? I’m not saying that cheating quote-unquote is a good thing, but some people do move into quote-unquote ethical non-monogamy if they have noticed that they haven't been able to make monogamy work. And so while maybe you may need to have repair and do the work around what made you feel like you couldn't do it in this, you know, other consensual way, what, you know, what did you learn from that? 

So I do see some people going into it after there's been a rupture. I see some people going into it because they were raised in a you know more liberal space. And they already knew that there were options for this, you know. And I see some people getting into it after 40 years of monogamous marriage because they want to spice things up or because one person finally said that they had a desire. So I do just want to, you know, it's never too late. And I just want to give permission for how all the different people found their way to it. 

And look, I also know people who practiced those things and then were more ambiamorous, like you said, who were like, oh, you know what? I actually found this way back. But another thing I want to name is while you are exploring, sometimes it can be hard not to fetishize and objectify other people. I think because when people are exploring this, they're kind of like, okay, well, what can this do for me? What can non-monogamy do for you? 

And so sometimes I will see people not necessarily doing relational work to connect with the people that they're having these other, you know, potential partnerships or things with, but instead just objectifying them. So in some circles, we call this unicorn hunting, when a straight couple is looking for a third and they just don't really respect and treat that third person as like a human with their own desires, they're sort of like oh you're here to just make our relationship more fun and exciting, and if that person's down to be objectified as a unicorn, okay cool, but, you know, as you're exploring this, because you might be feeling anxious or a little bit overwhelmed, you might not be thinking as compassionately or relationally, so just try to check yourself and make sure that you're not objectifying, unless they want to be objectified people, places, things, you know, experiences while you're trying to make your life more the way you want it.

Nadège: Yeah, absolutely. All humans are humans, right? We have feelings. And I love the idea that there is no such thing as normal, so everything is normal, right? Including all of the polyamory, all of this beautiful stuff, and all of the ways we can fall in love. So, Nicoletta, thank you so much for joining us today. Honestly, you have such a beautiful way of breaking down and normalizing this topic, and that's why I was so excited to have you on. And how can our listeners find out more about you, your work, or work with you if they're interested? 

Nicoletta: Thank you. Yeah, I am a licensed therapist in California, so I do see clients in the state of California, but I also do coaching and consulting and retreats and intensives outside of California. My website is sort of a mouthful, nicolettavheidegger.com. I'll trust you could put it in the show notes, please. So people can find me there. I'm also taking a little bit of a social media break, which has been really nice, but I'm still on there sometimes and you can find my links on my Instagram @slutsandscholars or on my other Instagram @therabywithnicoletta. So you can find my websites there to contact me, follow me, you know, join my email list for when I do host events and things like that. And yeah, thank you so much for having me. It's always great to talk about this with you.

Nadège: Yeah. And just like a plug, Nicoleta's events and retreats are amazing. Sometimes we've done them together. Sometimes I've just come as an attendee, and you're just so great at what you do. And your podcast is amazing. I've been a guest on it. After I know everybody is going to binge the Pleasure Science Podcast, and then you have to go listen to Sluts and Scholars, right? Because why stop?

Nicoletta: Yeah, listen to our episode first.

Nadège: Well, that is it for this week's episode of Pleasure Science and the first half of season one. So we're actually going to take a little bit of a break over the holidays. But don't worry, we will be back on January 8, with the second half of season one. And we're going to be starting off with a bang as I'll be diving into all things kink and BDSM. So we left things with non-monogamy. And now we're going to go into even more fun, yummy goodness. I promise you, you will not want to miss that. 

But in the meantime, you can follow me on Instagram and TikTk @pleasurescience.