GOD LOVES SEX? ALL THINGS PLEASURE, MINDFULNESS & RELIGION

How do you reconcile spirituality with sexuality?  For so many of us, religion was a tool used to make us feel shame or fear for our erotic desires.

That's why Nadège sits down with Dr. Tara, a tenured professor of sexual communication and a practicing Buddhist. Dr. Tara opens up about her journey with sexual empowerment and how she maintains integrity with her religious practice while also honoring her desires.

Nadège and Dr. Tara discuss different elements of mindfulness, from meditation to plant-based medicine, and give tips on how you can start having mindful sex right now!   

If you have ever struggled to reconcile your relationship with spirituality and sex, this one is for you.

Dr. Tara is a tenured professor of sexual communication and the founder of LUV. When she's not teaching, she creates sex education content for her millions of social media followers, writes her column 'Sexplore' for Women's Health, hosts her podcast LuvBites, co-hosts the UK's hit TV show Celebs Go Dating, and co-hosts the popular radio show Loveline. 

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And be sure to follow Dr. Tara at:

• Her website - https://www.luvbites.co/
• YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@Luvbitesco/videos
• Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/luvbites.co/
• TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@luvbites.co

Dr. Tara’s Tedx Talk 

Dr. Lori Brotto

Dr. Diana Kirschner

Gabby Berstein

Dr. Tara: The cool thing about the couples one that you said is you don't need to expect sex afterwards. And I absolutely agree with that because my husband and I will do the couple sexual meditation naked and holding hands. And it's after 10 minutes, then we go make tea.

Nadège: Welcome to Pleasure Science, a podcast dedicated to helping you feel healthier and empowered in your sexuality. And I am so excited to jump into this topic because I know it runs deep with every person listening. So today we're going to talk about sex through the lens of religion, spirituality, but also mindfulness, because I've personally experienced mindfulness, being a heart opener and a mind opener to healing trauma and having just so much better sex.

So I'm so excited because one of my favorite people is here today to talk about this, Dr. Tara. And I want to say your last name, I might say it wrong. But, Suwinyattichaiporn?

Dr. Tara: So close.

Nadège: Yeah. Okay. How do I pronounce it?

Dr. Tara: Almost there, baby. Suwinyattichaiporn. 

Nadège: Oh, so beautiful. But a little bit about Dr. Tara today. Dr. Tara is a tenured professor of sexual communication. She's the creator of Luvbites. And honestly, if she isn't already one of your favorite sex positive influencers, she's about to be. Like your content is so heartwarming and welcoming and educational. And one of the reasons I was like, I need to have this conversation on sex and spirituality with Dr. Tara is because I started watching your content where you would go to the temple, and you would talk about like this morning, I masturbated, I did some mindfulness, and now I'm at the temple. And I just love your approach. You're so open, you're so kind, and you're so real. And I was like, you know what, if we're going to talk about sex and spirituality, it has to be with Dr. Tara.

Dr. Tara: Nadège, this intro, there's so much praise in this intro and I have a praise kink. 

Nadège: Yes baby!

Dr. Tara: So I am turned on. 

Nadège: You know, if I can do anything in this podcast, it’s that.

Dr. Tara: Should we get a room or what? But thank you so much. That's a very kind intro, and you know, the affinity is definitely reciprocal, because when we first met I was drawn to you right away and you have such beautiful energy, very open, very unapologetic. I feel like we're kindred spirits and love talking about, you know, sex and spirituality, but also astrology. That's why you were on my podcast on sexatrology and I really love that episode. So for those of you listening, after listening to this episode, go listen to that episode of Nadège sharing all of our sexatrology and yes, read my chart. That was really insightful.

Nadège: Well, I mean, it was so much fun. I love your podcast. Your podcast is amazing. 

Dr. Tara: Thank you. 

Nadège: And so when we start off any episode with the Pleasure Science Pod, I always ask the same question because I always get the most incredible responses. 

So Dr. Tara, what is your definition of sex?

Dr. Tara: Sex is an emotional, spiritual, recreational, and relational experience shared by all participants involved in that encounter. And whatever it is.

Nadège: I love that and I agree. Ah, it's… I feel like every time I ask that question, I unlock a different level of understanding connection and intimacy, but also the abundance and expansiveness of it, right? And of sex. And so as we, you know, before even jumping into the sex and spirituality, you have such a fascinating way of coming up in this industry. How did you become a sex expert and a tenured professor who teaches people about sex? I mean, come on, that is the coolest sentence I could ever say. 

Dr. Tara: Oh, my gosh, you're too kind. Long story short, I'm originally from Thailand, then I moved to the US for graduate school. I did my master's and PhD in the US. Loved it. Loved learning, loved exploring, loved being curious. My PhD was in human communication, but particularly in relational and sexual communication.

So when I was about to finish my PhD, I was in the job market. And during that year, there were only a couple of jobs in the tenure track professor realm. And I landed quite a few of them, actually. I landed a few jobs. 

Nadège: Yes, you did, baby. Oh, my God. I love it. 

Dr. Tara: And so I honestly picked where I thought I could hang out with most of the other professors there, because there were, you know, people in my generation. And then I also picked based on location. And I know I wanted to come back and live in SoCal, so I picked Cal State Fullerton and you know no regrets at all. I've been there eight years. 

Nadège: Wow.

Dr. Tara: The reason why I think I had a lot of, I think, mass media and social media success is because of my professor background. I'm already explaining things on a daily basis to my students, right? So when I started social media, I thought, okay, how do I explain this, but literally in 30 seconds? Because, you know, we have like one hour. But how do I change that and and explain it in 30 seconds and, you know, also inserting humor, inserting some educational content and making it relatable. So I really thought about that quite thoroughly and then hired the right team. So it just blew up. The social media blew up. I have millions of followers, and then following that the TV show opportunity and all the things. So I'm very grateful to be able to educate and normalize sex positivity every single day as I'm sure you do it too. It's a great job. 

Nadège: But that's so inspiring. And I also just feel like it speaks for itself, the level of work and expertise. And you know, for anyone listening, whether you're in our industry or not, there's abundance to be had in teaching about sex and educating about sex. And I also think-

Dr. Tara: We don't have enough. 

Nadège: We don't have enough. Even though people like Dr. Tara are here or I'm here, there's so much more that needs to be healed and shared. Speaking of which, sex and religion, right? And spirituality. I feel like something that's so interesting about this topic is sex is so natural. It's how humans come to be, right? It's such an important and integral and basic part of the human experience. And then spirituality in the last several thousand years has tried to distance itself away from that and control that and can almost see sex as this threat to spirituality. And so how has your experience been as someone who became a sex expert professionally, but then is also a spiritual person? What has that been like?

Dr. Tara: Yeah, I think the majority of the work I had to do first was to learn to unshame the parts that I was ashamed about. And that work, just to be really honest and real with you, that work had to be done with a therapist. Because I wasn't really sure if there was anything wrong, because, you know, it wasn't like I grew up in a very, very repressed family that locked me in a room and like, you know, I didn't grow up in a cult, because there are people like that, who grew up in a cult they, you know, get punished for touching themselves or, you know, I didn't have that extreme of a religious experience, but definitely grew up in a very religious family. 

We go to the temple. We went to the temple three times a week growing up, a very common occurrence. We have a whole Buddha room at home with tons of different Buddhas and you know statues and other goddess and gods too. Cause Thai Buddhism is kind of mixed with Hinduism and Taoism. So we have different gods and goddesses, but definitely in the presence, right? Like, you know, some people grow up in a home that doesn't really have any religious artifacts? Not my home. Next to my room is like 300 Buddhas. And, you know, the other, yeah, other, quote unquote, pure gods and goddesses out there. So definitely grew up in a strong presence of religiosity.

But, you know, whenever you mentioned spirituality, so to me, I have two separate journeys. One is unshaming myself from all the things that I thought were bad about me being a sexual woman that were taught based on Buddhism, right? 

Like when you go to a Buddhist temple, you have to cover your whole body, right? Because you don't want to, because your body is provocative and you should be respectful by covering, you have to cover your arms, your legs, any of you that are listening that have been to Thailand you will remember or recognize that when you want to go into a temple they ask you to wear long skirts. 

So I think these memories, little memories about my body and how I was treated as a woman. You know, you can't even give offerings to monks, Buddhist monks, as a woman. Either the man gives it and you touch the man's back to get the good deed, the good karma, or the monk has to put down a piece of cloth to receive it. So you are taboo, and you can’t be near a monk, can't be, you know, touching a monk's hand so… and no one ever explained it to me, so my whole life I just thought like oh, when you're a woman, you're inferior. So worked on that, I worked on that with therapists, and really had a healthy balance of really appreciating Buddhism for what it is and really appreciating Buddhist practices like meditation and praying, but getting rid of the other things I didn't like, while embracing my sexuality. In terms of spirituality, I mean, can we talk about psychedelics or no? 

Nadège: Oh yeah, we can girl. Yes, we can. This is the Pleasure Science pod. Like we all want to learn. 

Dr. Tara: What's your view on psychedelics? 

Nadège: My view on psychedelics is that they can be very healing and they can be very helpful. We've seen overwhelming scientific research that has shown that it can be extremely healthy and healing, especially for people with PTSD, especially for veterans, especially people healing from sexual assault. So I'm very pro health. And so I feel like pro health makes me pro plant based medicines, you know, and that does include psychedelics. And then I also think when we are talking about psychedelics, we automatically have to also entertain and consider the addiction and the party culture, and so how we can take these things that we have access to, right, these psychedelics that can have very positive effects on the mind and body, and then also realize we're these imperfect humans and we like to abuse our pleasure.

And so I do like to talk about this stuff, especially on the Pleasure Science podcast, because as scholars, you and me, we're here to make people think, make people question, you know. Just because I like it does not mean anyone listening has to like it, but I hope you listen to this podcast because you like to think.

Dr. Tara: Right. 

Nadège: So, you know, that's why you're here. So what do you think about psychedelics? Because thinking of mindfulness, I love that you did touch on that. I feel like there's a kind of underground when it comes to mindfulness, healing, sexuality, and religion that does have to do with psychedelics, because so many religions also, right, would do psychedelics…

Dr. Tara: …for thousands of years. So my experience with spirituality and psychedelics has been predominantly about ayahuasca. I went to an ayahuasca retreat in Costa Rica, and it was a five day, three ceremonies ayahuasca retreat. And it was at a very rural area, like no paved roads kind of place. There were like 22 of us, we were placed in a hut together, and we were there all night for three nights drinking the tea.

Before this experience, I had a lot of personal turmoil when it comes to love, sex, and connection, because I was married and it wasn't the marriage that I was meant to be in. With Ayahuasca, I was able to experience this sense of courage and almost like pride in how far I've come and who I am as a woman and like my womanly body. And that I deserve everything that I want through connecting with the universe. Like, the universe told me to remind myself that I am… that my future and my life is really, really in my hands. And that's the most kind of vivid thing I remember. Because so many things happened in my mind during the ceremony. Your head just runs like crazy. So a lot of memories came by, a lot of visuals. I couldn't retain a lot of things. But the things that I retain was that I need passion in my life. And that was a part in my life that lacked passion. So spiritually, there were spirits that were talking to me.

So when I came home, I started pretty much, you know, meditating every single day, doing breath work. And during meditation, I talk to God or gods. I talk to the universe. I talk to the higher power. And I ask for signs, quite often, and yeah, right after the ayahuasca retreat, I got a divorce, like properly got a divorce with, you know, papers. And started literally just living my life exactly how I want it. Go after everything that I want unapologetically. And to be honest, at this point in my life, this is the happiest point in my life. The happiest, the healthiest, the most successful, the most fulfilled, the richest. 

Nadège: I love it. 

Dr. Tara: Yeah. You know, just really, I feel so good. And I really have to… It's partially attributed to that journey with ayahuasca, you know. Of course, there's so many people that go do it hoping that it will solve all their life problems, but it doesn't unless you do things. 

Nadège: Right, totally. I think all of these things are a mirror. 

Dr. Tara: The lesson is you have to execute. You have to come home and, you know, execute your plan.

Nadège: Absolutely. No, totally. Ayahuasca or mushrooms or these other psychedelics or even just therapy will force you to face yourself. And then it's like, what do you do now that you've done that? You do have, like if you want your life to change, you don't press a button, you take action, right? But it's true, like seeking out these different modalities can be so helpful for you to really get clear also. Like step out of indecision, step out of confusion, step out of overwhelm. 

When I did mushrooms for the first time and did a guided journey with the shaman, it was so incredible. And ah, and like you, I can't put it into words. My mind was doing and seeing so many things. 

But when I came out of the experience, I felt so much lighter. I felt a lot more grounded and a lot clearer on just certain things that mattered in life and that didn't matter in life. And it made me take very intentional actions and steps forward. And so I can't… I haven't done ayahuasca yet, but I am going to. I’m actually… one of my colleagues also just became a shaman. And so I… and he's been studying for the last three years and was just down in Peru and he's come back now. And so I'm like, okay, I feel like I'm ready. And I love that he just graduated. So I'll keep you updated on my experience because I'm excited. 

And this is what's so fascinating, I think, about both of our journeys, because I also went to UC Berkeley, studied sex, made this business, you know, focused with the science, science, science. But when I started really experimenting with things outside of the status quo, but that were deeper into the spiritual realm or woo woo or whatever you want to call it, I had such big breakthroughs. And in fact, it made a lot of the things that I learned scientifically make more sense. It was almost like I could now read between the lines and be like, OK, this is a theory someone created and they were onto something. But now I can see deeper levels. It's just amazing. It really is. And so I love that that's been a part of your spiritual journey with, you know, coming into who you are now. And so when you look at your relationship to religion now, how do you see… because you still, you know, go to temple and you still do these things, which I also love because you could be a slutty bad bitch and a religious bad bitch. You could do it all, you know. But how is your relationship to spirituality now that you've, you know, that you've just done and experienced so much for yourself?

Dr. Tara: Yeah, I basically show my titties at night, cover my titties in the morning to go to the temple. Have you been the Thai temple in LA? 

Nadège: No, we should go. I would love to go.

Dr Tara: It's in North Hollywood, so it's not far from you. 

Nadège: Nice. Yeah, okay let’s definitely go together.

Dr. Tara: Okay, I should take you, but you have to cover yourself. Okay. 

Nadège: Oh, that's yeah, I lived in Thailand. So I remember, I actually kept making the mistake when I first moved of having my feet facing the Buddha at the temple. And luckily I was there with people who knew me so they could be like, stop doing that. Don't put your bare feet facing the Buddha and I was like, Oh my gosh.

But it was such a… it was a really cool experience being over there, and actually, I had done that intentionally because kind of like you I grew up in a very… like I grew up in a liberal household, but that liberal household came from deep religious roots. And so my dad's side was Roman Catholic and my mom's side was Jewish. My grandmother survived the Holocaust so Judaism was very important to her. Actually, when I went to a Catholic high school, we didn't tell my grandmother. We just told… because it was a last minute decision, and my dad and my mom are like, you know, she lives in another country. She doesn't need to know, you know, it'll just make her upset.

But it was a really fascinating experience because I was always surrounded by religion. I definitely inherited all those small messages, too, in my own way of what it means to be sexual and why you should hide it and why you're taboo. I especially relate to what you were saying with the Thai temple, because in a lot of more religious Jewish, you know, temples and circles, you also cover yourself. Like when friends of mine got married and I would go and be invited to the wedding, I had to buy… I couldn't wear the clothing that I would normally wear. I had to buy new clothes. I truly had to cover down to the elbow and happy to do it, you know, because i don't think I'm here to tell anyone what's right or wrong for their life or their spirituality. It's such an intimate journey.

But I do question when religion takes us away from our sexual self, because that is just such a core part of who we are, you know, and so it's been interesting. I love hearing your journey because I can completely relate with… almost it feels like mixed messages, like growing up in the world that we have, having the internet being like, okay, wait, it's super cool to like, dress like a hooker. But it's also like, you have to be a certain way to get married and to be respectable, you know, and all of these, all of these contrasting things. 

Dr. Tara: Yeah, I mean, we grew up in the Britney Spears era. So revealing clothing, being very sexual. Literally one of her songs is, “I'm a slave 4 U”. When I was a kid, I didn't know what slave means, but now I do. 

Nadège: Yeah, yeah yeah yeah totally. 

Dr. Tara: I just… I heard all of those messages from mass media, right? And then you hear messages at home and then you hear messages from your religion. So it's quite confusing. But correct me if I'm wrong, in Orthodox Jewish, it's even more intense, right, with covering for women and wearing a wig and not sleeping in the same bed as your husband when you are on period because you're dirty. 

Nadège: Yes, that's also true, which is such a fascinating thing, because I do think that sometimes in long-term relationships, sleeping in different beds or not being on top of each other all the time is a good thing. But it's an interesting... I actually remember one of… like talking to one of my friends who is married and is in a Chabad, a very religious marriage. And yeah, when she is on her period, it begins a two week timeframe where her and her husband aren't really supposed to touch, be sexual, or share a bed. 

And she was saying… like when she first told me about this, because even as someone who is raised Jewish, I feel like I find out new things all the time because there are so many different ways, just like Buddhism, right? Like there's so many different ways to be a part of a religion. And so my friend had told me that, and I was instantly… all my feminist kind of like California Western, like shackles came up. And I was just like, that's oppressive. What do you mean? Your bleed is sacred. You know, all that… all going on my soapbox. And she was like… and I love this friend who's also a Virgo, who's very open minded. And so… and Dr. Tara is a Virgo for anyone curious of a lovely Virgo.

But anyway, so I kind of got on my high horse talking to my friend about this stuff. And my friend was like, well, you know, I can see where you're coming from. But actually, it's amazing for our marriage. It means that there's a certain time of the month every month that I can look forward to where I'm not expected to seduce anyone or to be, you know, this sexual creature.

And I thought that that was so interesting and kind of does go back to the laws that were on the books for hundreds of thousands of years. No, for hundreds of years, not hundreds of thousands of years, for hundreds of years where wives were property. And if she didn't have sex with her husband all across Europe and in the United States… it's actually still legal in some states in the United States where a man could rape his wife because he owns her, which obviously I don't think that would hold up in court, but that law is still on the books, people. 

Dr. Tara: Absurd. Terrible.

Nadège: Yeah, right. And so when my friend was sharing with me that actually this religious and spiritual law is very helpful for their marriage, it means that it's literally her permission to sort of do what she needs to do for herself. And that's how she looks at it, as like her time to connect with her children, connect with herself. She doesn't have to be… Like sex isn't on the table and that creates a different reality for those two weeks. And then when, you know, sex is back on the table, they actually crave each other and are excited. And so it was so interesting because I started looking into studies and I did find some studies that showed that marriages that maybe will have a long distance element, so it's not always long distance, but maybe for a month, your spouse is somewhere else. Or like this with the religious kind of, um, Judaic and Islamic practice, right? Of not touching people while they're on their bleed. These things can create more intimacy in some relationships because there's the absence that makes the heart grow fonder. 

And so it's a really fascinating thing because I am a little torn because on the one end I, you know, knowing what I know about religion and history, I know that a lot of these rules were created, so that birth could be really policed and controlled. And I know that that's a part of that situation. But then on the other end, you can't ignore the fact that there are people who are like, actually, this system is so nice and healthy for me. I love it.

So you know, right? It's like, again, to each their own, but what for you with mindfulness, cause this was something I also wanted to touch on, cause I feel like we could go so deep into spirituality and we have. I love our conversations. I feel like you and I always go really deep. But with mindfulness, mindfulness is something, obviously it's for everybody. It doesn't belong to any specific religion, but it can feel like such a spiritual experience. And I know especially with Buddhism, that is kind of a part of the religion. Whereas for me growing up in Christianity and in Judaism, I never heard of meditation until I was an adult and mindfulness. And those things really changed my world because I didn't know how to slow down pleasure. And that was affecting my ability to connect and to have orgasms. So for me, mindfulness is orgasmic. 

Dr. Tara: Mindfulness is orgasmic.

Nadège: And when I know orgasmic is one of your favorite words. But talk to me a little bit about mindfulness, meditation. Why is it so healthy for sex?

Dr. Tara: Yeah. So, a little background about me and why I was so interested in meditation was that, you know, growing up as a Buddhist, you were, as a child, you were forced to meditate all the time. It's a part of the Buddhist practice. So when I was a kid, I would meditate with my parents like every single day, even if it was like two minutes of being silent, closing my eyes and staying still. Right? 

That's basically meditation. But they would make me do that in the Buddha room every single day, either before school or when I come back from school. So it's kind of, it's in my blood to meditate, I think.

When I was in my early teen years, my parents would send me to Vipassana camps for juniors. So they're all teens, and it's silent meditation camp for three days or five days. And the longest I've been, it was seven days, and It was really rough, really, really hard. And when you were a kid, it's even harder. Because you just didn't see the benefits back then. Who knew I would have, you know, multiple orgasms due to this when you were 12? You didn't know. When I was 12, all I wanted was like watching Sailor Moon and eating chocolate.

Nadège: Amen, yes. 

Dr. Tara: And that wasn’t permitted.

Nadège: Which is your sailor actually, by the way, which was your sailor of the five?

Dr. Tara: Oh, um Venus.

Nadège: Oh, I could see that for you. Totally. I love Mars. 

Dr. Tara: Oh, cute. So yeah, I was, you know, I wanted to watch TV, eat snacks, and stay home, not go to this silent meditation camp with strangers and like, they didn't allow any technology. They didn't allow food past 4pm. So it was a lot of discipline. Yeah, so I had that kind of experience. So as an adult studying sex, I was really looking into ways to improve my own sexual experiences, my orgasms, and my confidence. And as I looked into research, I didn't realize there's just a ton of research on sexual mindfulness practices and how they contribute immensely to positive sexual outcomes, like better orgasms, less pain, higher sex drive, higher sexual desires or sexual interest, ability to get wet more, the ability to have an erection more consistently.

So mindfulness practices have been proven multiple times in social science and in experimental research that it 100% works when you do it committedly. So after I read that, I was like, holy shit, that's so interesting. I want to start doing it regularly. And I was doing it regularly and I definitely saw huge improvements in myself, even after two weeks of doing it every single day. 

Nadège: Wow. And so wait, what is your practice then that you would… for anyone listening who's like, well, I would love to even just start that journey, maybe share a little of what your practice is or recommendations for how to start that.

Dr. Tara: Yeah. So mine is really, really elementary. And I give myself that small goal so that I always meet the goal. 

Nadège: I love that. Yes. 

Dr. Tara: Yeah. I'm not Joe Dispenza. I'm not meditating four hours a day. Like I can't do it. I just can't do it. But I make sure I meditate five to ten minutes every day. Sometimes I do it quietly. And sexual meditation is like a regular meditation, but it focuses on sexual thoughts, feelings, and sensations in the body. So you can aim that particular meditation, you can dedicate it towards one goal. If you want sexual thoughts, maybe during that meditation, you set a timer for five minutes, give yourself grace for the whole five minutes, like don't open your eyes beforehand. And then think about the last time you had really hot, passionate, sexy sex. And if you've never had it, cool. Maybe read some smut, listen to audio porn and then… or imagine a hypothetical scenario. Maybe you have a work crush that you can never fuck. I had one of those before, a work crush that I can never fuck. So I just would imagine what would it be like to fuck this person? So that's a sexual thought meditation. 

But you can also do sexual feelings, which is through breath work, like breathing into your genital… breathing in and out and feeling that your body move. You can also do sensations. So you can massage your earlobes, you can massage your nipples, massage your pubic area while meditating. So there's different types of meditation that you can do. And if you're someone that's really, you know, a beginner or you just really prefer guided meditation. It's the reason why I create my free YouTube guided meditation, is you have five minute one and 10 minute one. You also have a solo one that you can do every day. You also have the couples one that you can do with your partner while holding hands and being naked.

Nadège: Which is so healthy. You know, there's so many times where people, maybe long term or short term lovers, so much will be solved if you just hang out naked together without the expectation for sex. You take that expectation away and are just together with your bodies, that can be so… and that can be meditation. But I love that. I'm definitely going to check out your YouTube. And we are doing a sex meditation episode. It's an affirmation meditation because that's the type of meditations I've been loving. I have found my meditation practice. First off, it's young. My meditation practice is like a toddler. It's about two years old. So, you know, learning a lot from Dr. Tara today, and I'm so excited. And one of the things that I've been loving is affirmation meditations because I'm such an audio verbal processor. And, like you, I also have a praise kink. I love words. So I love listening to these affirmations. 

Dr. Tara: I am a goddess. 

Nadège: Exactly. I'm like, I am a goddess. I am confident. I love those things.

Dr. Tara: My pussy tastes amazing. 

Nadège: Yes, it does. But I love that. I'm definitely going to go to YouTube, and I'm going to check out your meditations, because there aren't enough sex-positive ones. 

Dr. Tara: Right, yeah. When I created this, I really created whatever that I want to hear every day. I didn't care if no one listened to it. I was creating it for myself. And I already have it on my phone. Might as well post it on YouTube. So I just did not know that. If other people are interested, they can try it too.

The cool thing about the couples one that you said is you don't need to expect sex afterwards. And I absolutely agree with that because my husband and I will do the couple sexual meditation naked and holding hands. And it's like, after 10 minutes, then we go make tea and talk. It doesn't, you know, when, cause some people might feel like they're obligated then to have penetrative sex after, there's no obligation. 

Nadège: No, totally.

Dr. Tara: The one thing that I learned from, oh, so to backtrack. So after I started reading into all of these experiments, Oh, by the way, shout out to Dr. Lori Brotto, who runs the sexuality research lab at the University of British Columbia, because, I would say 75% of the research is hers.

Nadège: Hell yeah!

Dr. Tara: She published a ton of papers on her experiments on these sexual mindfulness interventions for mainly women, but some for men. But, I mean, there was a study that I read that I found very fascinating and it was women who had cancer or who recovered from cancer, beat cancer, recovered from cancer, but had zero sexual desire because you just beat cancer, and I believe it's cervical cancer so it's definitely attached to down there and the feeling of sexuality, and these were the women that reported, oh no I have no interest. And after doing her intervention, so she did the pre-test, did the intervention, did the post-test, they found significant increase in sexual desires in these formerly cancer patients. 

And I just found that so powerful. I'm like, we should have a PSA on a highway about sexual meditation, because it will literally solve, you know, whatever issues we all have. It works for everybody, literally. So I was so inspired by that. I wanted to create a big quantitative research, because that's another big part of my life, I'm a quantitative researcher and that's the class that I teach at college as well. I wanted to create a big study to help prove that point.

So I started on a two-year journey of data collection from people who are in long-term relationships and looking at variables that would predict long-term sexual satisfaction. And I found three main variables. The first variable is obviously, you know, this sexual communication. 

Nadège: Yes. 

Dr. Tara: You must have this in order to have long-term satisfying sex. There's no way that you would have it without talking. So sexual communication is top three variables. The second one is sexual self-esteem/confidence, because self-esteem is internal, confidence is external. So self-esteem and confidence. And then the third one is, one of the biggest variables, is sexual mindfulness.

Nadège: Wow. 

Dr. Tara: And this is based on 5,000 people. N equals five thousand, it took me forever to collect data, but I'm really proud of it. I did the TEDx speech about it because, you know, 5,000 people is no joke. This is yeah big data, right? Like I'm trying to show you that it really matters and I'm not just surveying 50 people. So it's really cool. Yeah. It's really cool to help confirm what I already believe in; sexual mindfulness is extremely important. 

Nadège: Yeah. Absolutely. 

Dr. Tara: A huge part of spirituality, a huge part of some people's religiosity, depends, because some people say they're quote unquote religious, but they really don't have any spirituality. Two things are separate to me sometimes.

Nadège: I agree. 

Dr. Tara: People are religious and spiritual. I can see that they really experience that part of their religion. But some people just say they are something, right? They say they're Christian, but then they do all the things that you're not, quote unquote, supposed to do. Like, you know, hate on gays or trans rights, or they say they're Muslim or they say they're whatever, right? Just because you belong to a religion doesn't mean you have a spiritual kind heart. 

Nadège: Yeah, no, I  have felt that. I felt that when I came out as queer and friends who I thought were cool were not cool with me anymore and different things. 

Dr. Tara: Really? Was it like which side? The Catholic side or the Jewish side? 

Nadège: There were people from both. And there were just different people. And it's interesting because I came out at different times in my life because I look so feminine and have always looked so feminine. So there was a time in high school where I was falling in love with my best friend and it was very obvious. A lot of people knew. And so then rumors started to be spread and I am unapologetic. I've always been that way for better or for worse. And so I wouldn't let it faze me. But then… I mean, on the outside, I was hurt on the inside. But then I would notice that there were some people who were not friendly with me anymore, and I could taste the subtlety of their rejection, you know, like, they may not have been in my face about it. And they may not have been overtly hateful. But I was just like, well, a few days ago, you treated me differently. And the only thing that's changed is that you know this little piece of information.

Dr. Tara: Damn bisexuals, they're dangerous. The bis are very dangerous. Beware. 

Nadège: But you know what I am grateful for is that even though I've had those experiences, and I think we've all had those experiences in some way of rejection, of people finding out something about ourselves and it changes their opinion of us. I think this especially happens with sex where people will find out something about someone and, you know, make it gossip and make it nasty. Not nasty in the fun way, right? Nasty in the we're hurting other people with our words way.

But I also… I think that there… I always have hope and that there's so much space for spirituality and kindheartedness to overcome all of those things. And, you know… but we're also, in fact, as we think of this, something that's coming to me right now that I think is interesting is how do we also heal? Because religion can be the thing that has hurt us sexually. But then I also think spirituality can be the thing that helps us heal. 

Because actually thinking of really interesting studies, there's this one psychologist, Dr. Diana Kirshner, and she did a study where she basically found if you want to get over a breakup faster, you need to fall back in love with yourself. And one of the top ways to do that is to develop a spiritual practice, not religion, but actually developing a spiritual practice. And that she found that doing that would help her clients reconnect to what was most important in their life. And again, feel like, this is a phrase I say all the time, where I want life to feel like I'm making love with the universe. Like I'm making love to create this life for myself. 

Dr. Tara: That's very meta.

Nadège: Isn't it? Isn't it? But when I was reading this research, that's kind of what it made me think of. I'm like, huh, developing a spiritual practice like mindfulness, which doesn't have to be attached to anything, can connect you back into your body, but also can just open you back up. But what has your experience been with healing sexual shame through spirituality?

Dr. Tara: Yeah. So, I mean, when people ask, I still say I'm religious because I practice in, I engage in religious practices and enjoy them and find benefit in them. And that's partially how I connect with my spirituality and God. For me, after working with a therapist on pinpointing parts that brought me shame and literally were working on exercises to get rid of it, but like one of it was writing it down a piece of paper and actually burn it, which I thought was very like witchery and not very Western science, and I'm like, I thought you're supposed to be a psychologist. But actually it is a psychologist like a psychology practice thing, an exercise that they do in therapy. 

So I did that. I also did reframing so, you know, parts that hurt me, reframe it to how it has helped me or how it contributed me to become this person. And then I also did an exercise that's called choose again.

Nadège: Oh, okay I like it. 

Dr. Tara: This was from Gabby Bernstein. Actually, or I don't know. Maybe she took it from someone else, but we all heard it from Gabby Bernstein. And so it was, you know, what was my… what were… what was your… what's your belief on this thing, right? And if I say something like, well, I should cover myself because I'm a woman and I don't want to showing my skin in the temple, and my therapist would go, no, choose again. Then I go, I cover myself because I have the power to choose the clothes to put on my body to engage in a practice that has existed for thousands of years. So it doesn't have anything to do about my body, but I'm respecting the practice, even though I disagree. 

Nadège: Yeah. Oh, I love that. 

Dr. Tara: Yeah. So there's quite a few exercises that I did. Yeah, so now I have like zero shame on that part. I still have shame on some other part. Sometimes my feet stink. 

Nadège: Me too, girl. Me too. 

Dr. Tara: Yeah. I have that shame sometimes. I also don't shower that often. You don't shower that often, right?

Nadège: Oh my God. I don't shower that often either. I love that. 

Dr. Tara: But you're French. So that's yeah normal for you. 

Nadège: I mean, I hide behind that, but let me tell you, it might not be because I'm French. It might just be, you know, the life I live. I don't know. I like my stink though.

Dr. Tara: Was that you or me that were stinky when we went on a hike?

Nadège: We were stinky. I remember that. I love the way my body smells. I actually like the smell of my BO. I like the smell of my feet. I mean, obviously, I shower enough. I don't want it to be overpowering. 

Dr. Tara: I don't like the smell of my feet. 

Nadège: You don’t? I do. Up until a certain point. But thinking of reclaiming things, I had to reclaim liking all of that stuff because I thought that I was some dirty girl because I liked the way my body smelled.

Dr. Tara: Girl, maybe because you were dirty. Bacteria-wise, scientifically. But no, I love all your reframing. I love all your reframing points because… you also grow armpit hair, right? 

Nadège: Yeah. Yeah. When I want to, I do, especially in the winter. 

Dr. Tara: Yeah. See, I think that's something that is really cool about you. You really don't give a fuck.

Nadège: No, actually, one time I was invited to a very upscale sex party at a mansion in the Hollywood Hills. And this was like a private home. Very fancy people. And I hadn’t shaved. I hadn't shaved my legs or my arms and I was working that day. And then it just got a little late. I knew I wanted to go to the party. And I was like, I am going to be the hairiest girl there, because this is… I know the crowd and these are very polished sexy people. But I was like, well, fuck it. And so I came like my hairy ass self and had a wonderful time. 

But then you do have to, you know, again, that self-confidence/self esteem thing that we were talking about, when I walked in and then, you know, people are naked and stuff. So I was getting naked and people are seeing… I could feel people see my body hair before they saw me. And most of the people who actually… and this was I'd say a predominantly what I like to call like hetero flexible bunch. So it was definitely more people who were there to hook up with the opposite sex. But like, if, you know, two guys got blow jobs from each other, like that's also cool, you know, type of thing. 

But when I walked in, I could notice that it was predominantly the girls who kind of stared at me. And I think it's because they were having to face the construct that in order to be beautiful, you're hairless. And then in walks, and I think I'm beautiful, so in walks a beautiful, you know, blonde with great tits who has a lot of body hair, and they are now confronted with their own idea of beauty, you know. And of course that can activate negatively onto me, but I've done so much work on my personal self-esteem and my confidence that like, oh, that doesn't faze me at all. It used to though, it used to. But now I'm just sort of like, ah I'm just so cute. I don't have time to explain to you why I'm cute, you know. And that's just it. 

Dr. Tara: Hair is a part of religion as well. 

Nadège: Yeah, oh, say more about that.

Dr. Tara: Yeah, we talked about the Jewish Orthodox, right? But in Buddhism, monks, when you ordain as a Buddhist monk, you shave your hair, you shave your head, and then you shave your eyebrows as well. And as women, if you want to become Buddhist nuns, you know, equivalent, it's, well, it's not really equivalent, but equivalent to a Buddhist monk, you also shave your head. You have to let go of all of that. So, to me, hair has such intertwined relationship with religion. Because Catholic nuns, they also cover the hair with that headpiece. 

Nadège: Yeah, that's true. 

Dr. Tara: How do you call it? A headpiece? 

Nadège: Yeah. Well, I don't know what the nun’s headpiece would be, but the hijab also in Islam, right? You're so right about that. 

Dr. Tara: Hair and religion. Yeah, that's a thing. But, you know, well anyways, you had armpit hair and I was just like, oh, that's so cool. I wish I could grow it. But because of my, you know, because of me being succumbed to social constructs since I was 21, I lasered my whole body and went through so much pain with 12 sessions, went through so much pain in order to live that socially constructed life. 

And now I have zero hair anywhere on my body, like body hair. I have head hair.

Nadège: Yeah, I know, you have a beautiful head of hair. 

Dr. Tara: No, thank you. No body hair anywhere. But I kind of wish that I had, so that I had the option to grow it in the winter and have a little cute bush and you know, but I deprived myself of that opportunity anymore in the future. So there's that. 

Nadège: I mean, you know what, though, I also just… I feel this way about my tattoos where it's like… I would… some of the tattoos that I got, I got when I was younger and some of them are very deep, you know, and have very deep meaning, and then some of them don't, but they don't. 

Dr. Tara: What is it? Is it like a penis? 

Nadège: Oh, I wish. I wish it was that iconic. 

Dr. Tara: Which one is like… which one is not meaningful?

Nadège: I mean, they're all meaningful, but there were some that I didn't really think about. I just kind of did it.

Dr. Tara: Is it like a star? Or what shape is it? 

Nadège: I don't want to say, but I'll tell you next time we hang out.

Dr. Tara: Okay.

Nadège: But I do love all my tattoos, but I relate with what you're saying in the sense of I was young and I did a thing and now I'm older and I'm like, I don't know if I would have made that same choice as Nadège now, but then I also don't want to take away the Nadège that I was then, you know, and it's just… and you know, thinking of those